A "New" Study of 1666(E) Loco variations. Including a rant on inconsistent assembly... (2024)

ivesboy

• Member since
  October 2007
• From: Northeast
• 263 posts

One of the most interesting and time consuming aspects of collecting vintage toy trains is undoubtedly variations. These differences in the manufacture of various items by Lionel are highly studied and documented in Postwar, although not so much for us prewar folks. Although i collect Ives, i also enjoy Prewar Lionel, especially the O-27 trains the firm produced from 1936-1942. That after all is where my collecting roots lie. My first vintage train was a 1689e set from 1937.

I have begun a study of variations involving the 1666(e) steam locomotives produced by the firm from 1938-1942 and again after WWII from 1945?-47. I feel we all could enjoy inspecting our locomotives to see if my assumptions are correct and hopefully add some new variations. The 1666 was a diecast steam engine which was modeled after the NYC J-1 hudson. Lionel intended it to be a "scale detailed" locomotive, they did a good job, it resembles the prototype closely(for a TOY train).

The loco shared its boiler shell with the 1664 and 224 which were introduced the same year, and also the 229 which steamed into the lineup a year later. The 224 and 229 where O gauge models and the 1664/1666 were sold in the o-27 line. Many characteristics of the 1666 are shared with its siblings. I have prepared below a list of variations, i will in time begin building a library of photographs to display the variations. I invite reader reports of their locomotives as well as critiques or corrections, lets have some fun with this. If your locomotive has been restored or shows signs of replacement parts please add that in. The youngest of these engines is 61 years old so their are bound to be inconsistencies due to disassembly and modifications.

A short rant. As a obsessive person, with an eye for detail i have noticed that the plate holding the drawbar located under the cab of 1666 locos never seems to be consistently mounted, some being mounted with the notched end positioned towards the motor, some being reversed and the screwholes all sorts of mingled around. I will illustrate how i feel this should be correctly mounted, and if anyone has any boxed examples which they believe have never been cracked-open id like to hear how yours is mounted. This is probably due to either owner meddling, or inconsistent assembly at the factory. Here we go

Two oddities- I've uncovered two oddities so far in my quest. I have observed two locomotives which have no plate to mount the drawbar, Instead the drawbar and rear truck are both mounted to the motor spacer bar. This is similar to the fashion they are attached to the 225e. The second is two locos which have roller pickups mounted on a bakelite plate similar to those found on 1665/56 switchers. I observed one in person, the loco showed no signs of tampering.

Early 1938- Gunmetal gray paint with ridges on sandome, 6 black zamac drivewheels similar to those found on 1668(e) torpedoes. Loco has Chemically blackened pilot and trucks with the 1(2)689t/w with the 1938 style magnetic coupler with nickel journals. Drawbar mounted on plate under cab. The plate is nickel finished and has 4 screw holes for different mounting positions. Loco has small seemingly 2 piece bolts attaching siderods to front drivers, and attaching cylinder linkage to the cast metal piston assembly. These bolts seem to be confined to the early engines. Usually found with a bright green E-unit drum. Dont ask how i know that...

Late 1938/early 1939- Same as above but the plate is now blackened and the tender has black journals with the 1939 style solenoid activated coupler.

1939- Loco now painted satin black, with 6 nickel tired zamac drivers. The small bolts for linkage now changed to uniform bolts. Loco has ridges on sandome. Tender 1(2)689t/w with black jounals and 1939 style box coupler.

1940- Loco remains black, although it seems sometime in this year the paint was dulled a notch. Sand dome still has ridges. Only noticeable change seems to appear in the tender which is 1(2)689t/w but now has 1940 style box coupler with simulated lift pin.

Note: Although the Greenberg book says the ridges where removed from the sand dome in 39-40 i believe the change occured in 1941. This is based on several early 1941/ late 1940 original sets with locos containing sand domes.

1941- Loco now painted a dull black, ridges almost always absent from sand domes. Trailing truck now mounted by a rivet to an extension of the drawbar platewhich now has only 2 screw holes. The loco was now available with only the 2689t/w or the plastic "scale detailed" 2666T/W. Both tenders have black journals with the 1941 style box coupler this coupler has a shortened shank with the drawbar pin removed.

Note- The removal of the drawbar pin and the shortening of the shank is believed by many to have been a response to government restraints on the amount of metal used in toys due to the outbreak of WWII. This was also followed by the blackening of trim and the use of cotter pins to hold handrails onto tankcars. This is around the time the aluminum paint turned to "92" gray. A high gloss medium gray. This would also account for the gram of metal saved by the deletion of the sand dome ridges. I myself do not believe this. The changes would almost certainly have occured in the 1940 production year, and even if they were not implemented until 1941, were still months before the U.S.'s entry into the war on December 8th. I have unsuccessfully searched for records of such government dictated restrictions, however i find it hard to swallow that one would have been issued early enough for Lionel to change it's tooling before 1941. I believe the coupler, trim, and pigment changes were natural steps in Lionel's quest for realism in the late prewar years. As for my guess at the missing sand domes? I believe they were deleted due to casting difficulties. All the engines i have viewed except a few early gunmetal 1666's have heavy filing marks around the ridges, indicating the casting was rough in this area. As the casting wore from use, it worsened, and it became more cost effective simply to file them right off.

1942- The loco remained the same as the previous year. Perhaps this is when the "225" style rear truck/drawbar assembly was used. This was observed on two locos, both prewar, one had ridged sand domes with the holes to mount the drawbar plate tapped, the other having the holes un-threaded and no ridges. This is probably due to Lionel using all stockpiled parts to assemble sets as toy production ceased, ceding to the war effort.

1943/44-No locos produced, except maybe some mutts by Madison Hardware assembled by them from left over stock. I believe this is where the mysterious green binned 3659 Dumpcar originated...

1945- An interesting year. Supposedly no 1666's produced, although i have seen two sharing the characteristics of the 224 of this year, with blackened handrails. Any comments?

1946- The 1666 returns, similar to the 1941 model. Except having a rounded cab floor. I have seen no examples of this loco to report in depth.

1947- The last year, the loco returns same as the previous year, except the lettering is now silver rubber stamped. No depression exists where the plate recess would have been located. I have read that this casting had an integral pilot, although i find that hard to believe. Once again i have seen no examples of this in person to comment further.

Some ending notes.

It has been speculated that late 41/early 42 1666's exist with their numbers rubber stamped in the recess left by an absent number plate. Although this is common on 229's,

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AFML

• Member since
  November 2007
• From: Hardinsburg, KY
• 41 posts

Sorry for the delay.. I've been dealing with that four letter word...W O R K! LOL!!

First, a couple of pics:

Now a few words from Bruce Greenberg:

"(A) Early 1946, number plates with "1666" in silver on a black background. The bell mechanism consisted of two parts: a bell (machined out of brass and plated) with horizonjtal shart mounted on stamped-steel bracket, which in turn was fastened by a screw to the boiler. The pilot and steam chest were mounted by screws, which in drilled and tapped holes in the boiler casting, the front truck was cast, the center drive wheel on each side had slots to receive the nibs of the cast eccentric crank, the eccentric crank was attached by a slot-headed screw, the rear truck mounting-plate holes were drilled and tapped into the casting, and the headlight socket had a screw base, black handrails and cotter pins.

(B) Early 1946, same as (A), but nickel-finished handrails and cotter pins.

(D) Same as (B), but smooth sand dome and 3/8" high "X" on left firebox door."

MUCH MORE info available!

Please also note: "The prewar 1666 has a pair of raised ovals which are not present on the postwar version. (The same change occurred to the 224 after 1938, during the prewar period." "So far, we have not turned up any evidence that the 1666 was produced in late 1945. However, we have one report (Make thattwo! I have the same set!) from J. Foss of a 1666 locomotive which came with a 2666WX tender, a 2454 PRR boxcar, a 2452 gondola, and a 2457 caboose. Alllthree of the cars and tender havethe early trucks with the open coil, whirly wheels, and thick axles. There is a slim chance that this set may have been made in late 1945 rather than early 1946."

"Now you know the REST of the story!" Neat stuff fer sure!

Wes

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